Chat With Tahir Shah
1. What really urges you to travel and explore? Is it a hunger for adventure? Or a reality check on life? An escape? WHAT DRIVES ME IS AN EAGERNESS TO LEARN AND UNDERSTAND, NOT THE BIG PICTURE – BUT THE ORDINARY STUFF. I’M OBSESSED ABOUT MICROCOSMS. I WANT TO SIT IN A CAFÉ AND WATCH THE WORLD GO BYE. IT’S THERE YOU SEE REAL LIFE, HUMANITY, CULTURE. I’M NOT INTERESTED IN HAVING MY PICTURE TAKEN AT NATIONAL MONUMENTS OR BESIDE THE SEVEN WONDERS OF THE WORLD.
2. Doesn't everything seem too dull after your journey is over? How do you cope, at least initially, with the so-called normal world? THE NORMAL WORLD IS WHAT GETS ME ALL FIRED UP. OF COURSE I LOVE TO TRAVEL, BUT I LOVE TO COME HOME TO – ESPECIALLY BECAUSE AFTER A LONG JOURNEY YOU SEE YOUR HOME WITH NEW EYES. THE GREATEST MOMENT OF A LONG JOURNEY IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD ON YOUR OWN PILLOW THAT FIRST NIGHT. GOSD, IT’S FANTASTIC. THE WORLD AROUND YOU IS ONLY AS DULL AS YOU MAKE IT.
3. Is it a sort of vicious circle?: You think you need to travel to get perspective, and when you're in the thick of it, you think you need to get back to gain total perspective. Is the book a way of crystallising the perspective for yourself? PERSPECTIVE – IT’S A MATTER OF TRAINING YOURSELF, TRAINING YOURSELF TO SEE. I DON’T MEAN TO SEE LIKE WE USUALLY SEE. I MENA TO ‘REALLY’ SEE. TO BE OBSERVANT. I CAN SIT FOR 10 HOURS AT A STRENCH ON A STREET CORNER IN, SAY, CALCUTTA, AND IT’S THERE THAT THE REAL PERCEPTION TAKES PLACE. I DICIPHER WHAT’S REALLY GOING ON… IT’S THERE THAT I UNRAVEL THE SOCIETY.
4. How difficult was it, while writing the book, to relive the moment exactly the way it was, not letting its feeling translate into something flat or more romaticised, from the comfort of normal life?
WRITING A BOOK TAKES DISCIPLINE. DISCIPLINE TO REMEMBER ACCURATELY, AND DISCIPLINE TO PUT IT DOWN IN A TRUE AND HONEST WAY. I CAN RELIVE A JOURNEY BECAUSE I TEND TO LIVE LIFE WITH A VIGOUR, AN ENERGY THAT GRIPS ME. EVERY MOMENT IS FANTASTIC. OF COURSE THERE ARE BAD TIMES, BUT I HAVE EXPERIENCED ENOUGH OF A ROUGH RIDE TO APPRECIATE THE GOOD TIMES. I WISH PEOPLE WOULD APPRECIATE WHAT THEY HAVE MORE OFTEN. I WISH THEY’D REALLY SEE THE LIFE THEY ARE LIVING, RATHER THAN MOPE ABOUT COMPAINING. WE ARE ALL DAMN LUCKY. I’M NOT PREACHING. I STATING THE TRUTH.
5. What is it like to bare everything - your story, which is so intimate at one level - in a book, meant for public consumption? Especially without the actual glory of having found the Lost City? THE GREAT THING ABOUT A BOOK IS THAT IT’S A PERSONAL THING. YOU ASK ANY WRITERS AND THEY’LL TELL YOU HOW PERSONAL THEY TAKE IT. IT’S ABOUT YOU AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE READER. THAT’S SO WONDERFUL. SO SPECIAL. THE STORY – IF YOU ARE CAREFUL – APPEARS JUST AS YOU WROTE IT. THERE’S NO MEDDELING. THERE’S A MAGIC ABOUT THAT.
6. I felt that the exploration was absolutely fictional in its bizarreness. Did you feel like your quest was unfurling like fiction all along? TRUTH, REAL TRUTH, IS OFTEN UNBELIEVABLE. IT SOMETIMES DOES READ LIKE FICTION. ON MY TRAVELS I HAVE COME INTO CONTACT WITH SOME VERY BIZARRE PEOPLE AND SITUATIONS. YOU FIND YOURSELF SOMETIMES THINKING, GOD THIS IS LIKE A MOVIE. BUT THAT’S THE GREAT THING ABOUT TRAVELLING – IT’S AS IF TIME, ORDINARY TIME, GOES INTO HYPERDRIVE,. MORE STUFF HAPPENS, OR SO YOU THINK, THAN IT WOULD IF YOU WERE SITTING AT HOME WATCHING TV ON A WEEK NIGHT. THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO RELAX AND TO LET THINGS HAPPEN. LET GO. WE SPEND OUR LIVES TRYING TO CONTROL ACTIONS, PEOPLE, IDEAS. FOR THAT REASON WE THINK WE’RE TRAPPED, THAT WE’RE LIVING STERILE LIVES. RELEASE, LET GO, AND LET THE REAL WORLD CONSUME YOU.
7. If it hadn't been for the photographs in the book, I really wouldn't have believed you entirely! But when I did suspend my disbelief, I quite enjoyed delving into things beyond my sense of the 'rational/ real', and it's stayed with me after the reading's over. What I want to know is that in that moment, when the paititi trail was driven by things beyond your own belief system, or definitions of understanding/ reason, what was your reaction (the objective tone of the book doesn't give that away)? What kept you going on?
HOPE KEPT ME GOING. IT ALWAYS KEEPS ME GOING. I HAVE HUGE HOPE, AND TRUST. IT IS LIKE A JET ENGINE THAT FIRE S ME UP AND PROPELS ME. I’M A MADMAN OUT THERE BECAUSE OF A CHILDISH HOPE – A HOPE TO ACHIEVE, A HOPE TO SUCCEED. I DON’T KNOW HOW OR WHY IT HAPPENS, BUT I GET CAUGHT UP IN IT, A FEROCIOUS OBSESSION TAKES HOLD.
8. There are very rigid tourist/ traveller/ explorer distinctions in travel writing. Isn't exploring riddled with its own set of delusions, like the tourist and traveller who're looking for certain things? Would you consider it higher-up, or just different? I’M NO BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. INDEED, I’M SURE MOST PEOPLE WOULD WRITE BETTER TRAVEL NARRATIVES THAN ME IF YOU LEAPT OUT OF THEIR STATIC LIVES AND TOOK TO THE ROAD. TRAVEL WRITERS ARE ORDINARY PEOPLE. GOSH, I GET ALL WORKED UP AND ANGRY AT PEOPLE WHO TRY TO MAKE OUT THEY ARE BETTER IN SOME WAY BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN TO THE DAMN NORTH POLE OR TO SIBERIA OR SOMEWHERE. THAT STUFF IS ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS. ONLY A 24 CARAT FOOL WOULD WASTE HIS TIME TREKKING TO THE POLES UNLESS THERE WAS A REASON, A PERSONAL REASON, TO DO IT.
9. Much has been made of the 'fluid' identity of a traveller as opposed to a tourist, but in the light of the Peru government's conspiracy to halt your expedition, and your recent experiences in Pakistan, is exploring the world really that simple anymore? Is the philosophical idea of it hampered by mundane details of nationality, passport stamps, and international politics? (you'd think the Victorians had it easier!) WE ARE LIVING IN A LOCKED-IN SOCIETY. WE TALK ENDLESSLY ABOUT BEING FREE, BUT WE FORGET THAT THE VICTORIANS, FOR INSTANS, COULD TRAVEL WITHOUT PASSPORTS ETC. BUT THEN AGAIN WE CAN TRAVEL AT (WHAT THE VICTIORIANS WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED TO BE) THE SPEED OF LIGHT. WE DON’T THINK TWICE ABOUT GETTING ON A JET LINER AND EATING A MEAL AT 35,000 FEET. YES, ACTUALLY, WE DO THINK OF IT – WE TEND TO THINK, ‘OH, IS THAT THE BEST FOOD THEY CAN GIVE ME UP HERE.’ IT’S MADNESS. WE’RE VERY FORTUNATE. WE’RE LIVING THE LIVES OF MAGICIANS.
RE. PAKISTAN THIS SUMMER – IT HELPED ME TO REMEMBER HOW BLOODLY LUCKY I AM. I FOUND MYSELF LOCKED UP IN PESHAWAR FOR 16 DAYS, IN THE TORTURE UNIT OF A PAKISTANI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE JAIL. IT KEPT THINKING ‘I’D LIKE MY LIFE BACK NOW PLEASE!’ BUT IT TOOK A LONG WHILE. IT WAS LIKE A TEST, LIKE SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE WANTED ME TO EXPERIENCE. THERE MUST BE A REASON TO IT. STRONG MEDICINE ISN’T ALWAYS TASTY, AND BEING LOCKED UP IN PAKISTAN WASN’T TASTY, BUT IT WAS A MEDICINE OF A KIND.
10. Have you ever felt that your quests have been driven by a selfish/narcissistic need - the need for perspective on your life, glory for yourself, sense of self achievement, a new experience. Does that make you guilty when you return home, to family? I MAY BE SELFISH, BUT SELFISHNESS DOESN’T FUEL ME. A DRIVE TO SEE, SMELL, TOUCH AND HEAR FUELS ME. OF COURSE THE BEST WAY TO UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN LIFE IS TO TRAVEL 3000 MILES AWAY FROM IT.
11. Finally, what perspective did you come away with after this quest? Has it scarred you for life in some ways? Like, do you go for/ enjoy 'normal' holidays with family anymore? Do you catch yourself rating any new experiences against the bizarre experiences you've had on your quests so far?
I LIKE GOING TO THE BEACH WITH MY TWO YOUNG CHILDREN AND SEEING THEIR FACES WHEN WE RUN TOWARDS TO SEA. I LIKE THE SIMPLICITY OF NOT TRAVELLING WITH 30 PORTERS. HARDHSHIPS IS IMPORTANT THOUGH. IT IS A YARDSTICK AGAINST WHICH TO MEASURE LIFE. THERE IS NOTHING SO IMPORTANT TO ME AS TO GET THE FEELING THAT I HAVE LIVED, THAT THE DAY WHICH EBBS AWAY IN NIGHT WAS ON A BIG SCALE, THAT IT WAS AN EXTRAVAGANZA. THE WORST THING FOR ME IS TO GO TO BED AND, AS I DRIFT OFF, TO TRY AND REMEMBER WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED. I LIKE TO LIVE A DAY THAT TURNS ROUND AND BACKS ME IN THE BACK.
ENDS
(C) Tahir Shah, 2006
2. Doesn't everything seem too dull after your journey is over? How do you cope, at least initially, with the so-called normal world? THE NORMAL WORLD IS WHAT GETS ME ALL FIRED UP. OF COURSE I LOVE TO TRAVEL, BUT I LOVE TO COME HOME TO – ESPECIALLY BECAUSE AFTER A LONG JOURNEY YOU SEE YOUR HOME WITH NEW EYES. THE GREATEST MOMENT OF A LONG JOURNEY IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD ON YOUR OWN PILLOW THAT FIRST NIGHT. GOSD, IT’S FANTASTIC. THE WORLD AROUND YOU IS ONLY AS DULL AS YOU MAKE IT.
3. Is it a sort of vicious circle?: You think you need to travel to get perspective, and when you're in the thick of it, you think you need to get back to gain total perspective. Is the book a way of crystallising the perspective for yourself? PERSPECTIVE – IT’S A MATTER OF TRAINING YOURSELF, TRAINING YOURSELF TO SEE. I DON’T MEAN TO SEE LIKE WE USUALLY SEE. I MENA TO ‘REALLY’ SEE. TO BE OBSERVANT. I CAN SIT FOR 10 HOURS AT A STRENCH ON A STREET CORNER IN, SAY, CALCUTTA, AND IT’S THERE THAT THE REAL PERCEPTION TAKES PLACE. I DICIPHER WHAT’S REALLY GOING ON… IT’S THERE THAT I UNRAVEL THE SOCIETY.
4. How difficult was it, while writing the book, to relive the moment exactly the way it was, not letting its feeling translate into something flat or more romaticised, from the comfort of normal life?
WRITING A BOOK TAKES DISCIPLINE. DISCIPLINE TO REMEMBER ACCURATELY, AND DISCIPLINE TO PUT IT DOWN IN A TRUE AND HONEST WAY. I CAN RELIVE A JOURNEY BECAUSE I TEND TO LIVE LIFE WITH A VIGOUR, AN ENERGY THAT GRIPS ME. EVERY MOMENT IS FANTASTIC. OF COURSE THERE ARE BAD TIMES, BUT I HAVE EXPERIENCED ENOUGH OF A ROUGH RIDE TO APPRECIATE THE GOOD TIMES. I WISH PEOPLE WOULD APPRECIATE WHAT THEY HAVE MORE OFTEN. I WISH THEY’D REALLY SEE THE LIFE THEY ARE LIVING, RATHER THAN MOPE ABOUT COMPAINING. WE ARE ALL DAMN LUCKY. I’M NOT PREACHING. I STATING THE TRUTH.
5. What is it like to bare everything - your story, which is so intimate at one level - in a book, meant for public consumption? Especially without the actual glory of having found the Lost City? THE GREAT THING ABOUT A BOOK IS THAT IT’S A PERSONAL THING. YOU ASK ANY WRITERS AND THEY’LL TELL YOU HOW PERSONAL THEY TAKE IT. IT’S ABOUT YOU AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE READER. THAT’S SO WONDERFUL. SO SPECIAL. THE STORY – IF YOU ARE CAREFUL – APPEARS JUST AS YOU WROTE IT. THERE’S NO MEDDELING. THERE’S A MAGIC ABOUT THAT.
6. I felt that the exploration was absolutely fictional in its bizarreness. Did you feel like your quest was unfurling like fiction all along? TRUTH, REAL TRUTH, IS OFTEN UNBELIEVABLE. IT SOMETIMES DOES READ LIKE FICTION. ON MY TRAVELS I HAVE COME INTO CONTACT WITH SOME VERY BIZARRE PEOPLE AND SITUATIONS. YOU FIND YOURSELF SOMETIMES THINKING, GOD THIS IS LIKE A MOVIE. BUT THAT’S THE GREAT THING ABOUT TRAVELLING – IT’S AS IF TIME, ORDINARY TIME, GOES INTO HYPERDRIVE,. MORE STUFF HAPPENS, OR SO YOU THINK, THAN IT WOULD IF YOU WERE SITTING AT HOME WATCHING TV ON A WEEK NIGHT. THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO RELAX AND TO LET THINGS HAPPEN. LET GO. WE SPEND OUR LIVES TRYING TO CONTROL ACTIONS, PEOPLE, IDEAS. FOR THAT REASON WE THINK WE’RE TRAPPED, THAT WE’RE LIVING STERILE LIVES. RELEASE, LET GO, AND LET THE REAL WORLD CONSUME YOU.
7. If it hadn't been for the photographs in the book, I really wouldn't have believed you entirely! But when I did suspend my disbelief, I quite enjoyed delving into things beyond my sense of the 'rational/ real', and it's stayed with me after the reading's over. What I want to know is that in that moment, when the paititi trail was driven by things beyond your own belief system, or definitions of understanding/ reason, what was your reaction (the objective tone of the book doesn't give that away)? What kept you going on?
HOPE KEPT ME GOING. IT ALWAYS KEEPS ME GOING. I HAVE HUGE HOPE, AND TRUST. IT IS LIKE A JET ENGINE THAT FIRE S ME UP AND PROPELS ME. I’M A MADMAN OUT THERE BECAUSE OF A CHILDISH HOPE – A HOPE TO ACHIEVE, A HOPE TO SUCCEED. I DON’T KNOW HOW OR WHY IT HAPPENS, BUT I GET CAUGHT UP IN IT, A FEROCIOUS OBSESSION TAKES HOLD.
8. There are very rigid tourist/ traveller/ explorer distinctions in travel writing. Isn't exploring riddled with its own set of delusions, like the tourist and traveller who're looking for certain things? Would you consider it higher-up, or just different? I’M NO BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. INDEED, I’M SURE MOST PEOPLE WOULD WRITE BETTER TRAVEL NARRATIVES THAN ME IF YOU LEAPT OUT OF THEIR STATIC LIVES AND TOOK TO THE ROAD. TRAVEL WRITERS ARE ORDINARY PEOPLE. GOSH, I GET ALL WORKED UP AND ANGRY AT PEOPLE WHO TRY TO MAKE OUT THEY ARE BETTER IN SOME WAY BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN TO THE DAMN NORTH POLE OR TO SIBERIA OR SOMEWHERE. THAT STUFF IS ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS. ONLY A 24 CARAT FOOL WOULD WASTE HIS TIME TREKKING TO THE POLES UNLESS THERE WAS A REASON, A PERSONAL REASON, TO DO IT.
9. Much has been made of the 'fluid' identity of a traveller as opposed to a tourist, but in the light of the Peru government's conspiracy to halt your expedition, and your recent experiences in Pakistan, is exploring the world really that simple anymore? Is the philosophical idea of it hampered by mundane details of nationality, passport stamps, and international politics? (you'd think the Victorians had it easier!) WE ARE LIVING IN A LOCKED-IN SOCIETY. WE TALK ENDLESSLY ABOUT BEING FREE, BUT WE FORGET THAT THE VICTORIANS, FOR INSTANS, COULD TRAVEL WITHOUT PASSPORTS ETC. BUT THEN AGAIN WE CAN TRAVEL AT (WHAT THE VICTIORIANS WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED TO BE) THE SPEED OF LIGHT. WE DON’T THINK TWICE ABOUT GETTING ON A JET LINER AND EATING A MEAL AT 35,000 FEET. YES, ACTUALLY, WE DO THINK OF IT – WE TEND TO THINK, ‘OH, IS THAT THE BEST FOOD THEY CAN GIVE ME UP HERE.’ IT’S MADNESS. WE’RE VERY FORTUNATE. WE’RE LIVING THE LIVES OF MAGICIANS.
RE. PAKISTAN THIS SUMMER – IT HELPED ME TO REMEMBER HOW BLOODLY LUCKY I AM. I FOUND MYSELF LOCKED UP IN PESHAWAR FOR 16 DAYS, IN THE TORTURE UNIT OF A PAKISTANI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE JAIL. IT KEPT THINKING ‘I’D LIKE MY LIFE BACK NOW PLEASE!’ BUT IT TOOK A LONG WHILE. IT WAS LIKE A TEST, LIKE SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE WANTED ME TO EXPERIENCE. THERE MUST BE A REASON TO IT. STRONG MEDICINE ISN’T ALWAYS TASTY, AND BEING LOCKED UP IN PAKISTAN WASN’T TASTY, BUT IT WAS A MEDICINE OF A KIND.
10. Have you ever felt that your quests have been driven by a selfish/narcissistic need - the need for perspective on your life, glory for yourself, sense of self achievement, a new experience. Does that make you guilty when you return home, to family? I MAY BE SELFISH, BUT SELFISHNESS DOESN’T FUEL ME. A DRIVE TO SEE, SMELL, TOUCH AND HEAR FUELS ME. OF COURSE THE BEST WAY TO UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN LIFE IS TO TRAVEL 3000 MILES AWAY FROM IT.
11. Finally, what perspective did you come away with after this quest? Has it scarred you for life in some ways? Like, do you go for/ enjoy 'normal' holidays with family anymore? Do you catch yourself rating any new experiences against the bizarre experiences you've had on your quests so far?
I LIKE GOING TO THE BEACH WITH MY TWO YOUNG CHILDREN AND SEEING THEIR FACES WHEN WE RUN TOWARDS TO SEA. I LIKE THE SIMPLICITY OF NOT TRAVELLING WITH 30 PORTERS. HARDHSHIPS IS IMPORTANT THOUGH. IT IS A YARDSTICK AGAINST WHICH TO MEASURE LIFE. THERE IS NOTHING SO IMPORTANT TO ME AS TO GET THE FEELING THAT I HAVE LIVED, THAT THE DAY WHICH EBBS AWAY IN NIGHT WAS ON A BIG SCALE, THAT IT WAS AN EXTRAVAGANZA. THE WORST THING FOR ME IS TO GO TO BED AND, AS I DRIFT OFF, TO TRY AND REMEMBER WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED. I LIKE TO LIVE A DAY THAT TURNS ROUND AND BACKS ME IN THE BACK.
ENDS
(C) Tahir Shah, 2006
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